The Engaged Consumer

Last week I wrote a blog post about "Earned Media and Siren Song of Mentions," where I outlined the problem that digital media professionals face when it comes to a world increasingly dominated by social media.

I promised to follow up this week with some ideas for a solution, since where I left off it was looking pretty grim. Have we lost complete control over message, time, and place? What can a media professional actually do in a new world slowly being taken over by the Conversation Stream?

I think the answer has something to do with hydroelectricity.

Hydroelectricity, according to Wikipedia, is “the production of power through use of the gravitational force of falling or flowing water.” The hydroelectric engineer doesn’t try to fight gravity, he or she just tries to divert falling water in a natural way so that it flows through turbines and creates energy.

For media professionals, the Conversation Stream is that falling water. The infrastructure you build to divert it, and the way you test and optimize that system over time, is the new structure for engineering brand success.

The Non-Sequitur

The first step to channeling Conversation to drive marketing, of course, is to understand how the Conversation Stream flows. The answer is actually pretty simple – it flows like any other conversation does. The enemy of any hydroelectric engineer is turbulence, and similarly the enemy of a social media pro is social awkwardness. There are lots of ways to be socially awkward, and sadly most of us have probably experienced them at one time or another in our personal lives. You can talk too much and not listen enough. You can be loud, interruptive, talking over others. You can be too quiet and not contribute anything. You can be distasteful or insensitive to others’ situations.

But the most common socially awkward action in social media today is the non-sequitur. It’s the marketer who, in the middle of the Conversation, changes the subject to something obviously self-serving or irrelevant. It happens in the ads along the side of the Stream, and it happens within the Stream itself when marketers tweet or publish a Facebook message that is promotional or faceless.

The commonly referenced solution for low relevancy is segmentation and targeting, but the problem here is less about who sees your ad and more about how they are using sites like Facebook. People watching the Conversation Stream are networking with friends and colleagues, and typically tune out ads. Not only do ads miss frequently on relevance, but the means of delivery isn’t relevant, either. This is why ads on Facebook have historically performed very poorly, even relative to ads bought elsewhere online.

Building Channels for the Stream

Have you ever observed anyone who is a really good conversationalist? One of highest order skills a conversationalist can have is the ability to elegantly “change the subject.” As a marketing conversationalist who has an end in mind, you need to ignore conversations where they are mentioning your brand (again, earned media is the end, not the means) and seek to join or start conversations about things that might be relevant - but one or two steps away from your brand. This is partly an exercise in smart hunting, but it’s also a numbers game. Only 20% of the Stream is about brands themselves, and a very small fraction of that will be about your brand, according to a recent study by Penn State.

If you are an automaker, go talk about travel. If you sell insurance, you probably know a lot about safety. Selling any type of food item? Tweet about nutrition. As a marketer, it might feel unnatural to focus on messaging that doesn’t push product, but remember that we are joining a Conversation already in progress. People will know you are from a brand (you should always tell them), but if you choose topics of conversation that have some relevancy to your brand it won’t seem weird that you are talking about it.

Once you’ve learned how to have these topical conversations and identified the ones where you can or should play a part, you can take advantage of your ability to facilitate these conversations structurally. By this I mean that instead of just striking up these conversations where they exist on third party networks, you can build digital properties that allow richer or deeper exploration of these relevant topics, and channel the Conversation Stream into them. You are now a hydroelectric engineer not seeking to interrupt or fight the flow, but redirecting it to your purposes.

Why not take this further by facilitating conversations about the category where your products or services exists? Another level of flow that moves the conversation even closer to your brand, but you still aren’t talking directly about yourself. It’s polite.

If Someone’s Interested, They’ll Ask

When someone has moved from a conversation about travel on Facebook to a conversation within your online community devoted to road trips to a conversation about the best cars for road trips, it’s time to give them the opportunity to ask you about one of the cars you make. By simply serving a highly relevant ad at this point, you give them the opportunity to click, and by clicking they are asking you about yourself.

These last-step ads are the turbines in your hydroelectric powerplant, the place where the Stream gets converted into the bottom line results that justify the investment. At every step of the way you haven’t tried to force the conversation, you’ve just helped it along, let it flow, and now a highly self-selected audience is rolling right past ads that are on your own site.

And as the Stream rolls through, it takes nuggets of your brand back with it into the main Conversation. If you are keeping it interesting and serving  visitors, they will recommend your content and conversations, through technologies like Facebook Connect and various social networking APIs (Twitter's being most notable).

Build vs. Buy

So in the end you are still placing ads. The difference is that the focus has shifted away from the place where people finally encounter the ads (and how you allocated money to buy those placements) to the pathway that they took to get there. By the time they see a product placement, it will seem like the natural next step, not an interruption, and as a media pro you will need to expand your skills to deliver that experience.

Does this mean you'll have to start thinking like an online publisher? Yes. Does it mean that you'll have to expand your skills to include digital development? Yes.Being a steward of a conversational brand means you will have to build the content and code that creates a pathway that is uniquely relevant and appropriate to you.

But take heart, media (be in paid or earned) is still about reaching out and forming new connections with your audience, and you've been doing that for years. The difference is that now that connection begins much farther away, upstream.

There is more proof of the ROI of a branded community, but this time it's specifically for retailers. Courtesy of a joint study from the E-tailing Group and Ripple6, we've got some new intelligence about how consumers react to these environments and how they drive people to make larger purchases more frequently. The highlights:

• 83% percent of online shoppers very or somewhat interested in sharing information about their purchases with people they know.
• This information sharing impacts commerce as pre-purchase opinions from others influence buying decisions for 74% of online shoppers.
• 67% of users are more likely to purchase more based on recommendations from people in a community in which they participate.
• 62% are more likely to frequent a retailer they have shopped before if they can be part of a community within that site.

Much of these types of statistics have been explored in other studies, most notably by Bazaarvoice, who has done a lot to outline the impact of ratings and reviews on purchase.

However, the statistic that I find the most interesting from this new study is the final bullet up top, where merely having the ability to commune on a retail site made 62% of people more likely to frequent it.

I suspect that people want to be able to see what others think about specific products, but they also want to hear about how those people integrate those products successfully into their lifestyle. This is a major value that retailers and their best customers can provide to rise above the lowest-price commoditization that sometimes plagues the industry.

If you talk to anyone at Powered as a potential client, we will be very happy to give you a guided tour of the ROI our clients enjoy (to the extent that we can without violating confidentiality). The numbers are compelling, and we measure the heck out of everything - not stopping with just the level of community activity, but working toward business impact. Purchase, loyalty, advocacy, brand affinity, consumer insight - we've launched communities that focus in all of those areas.

The investment models are very important - they tell us what we can expect, how to contruct the unique business case for every potential project, what to measure, and how to adjust to optimize results. But it's not really why marketers buy social. Let me explain.

Most of the time, the marketer who ends up talking to Powered is  someone in their 20's or 30's (or is young at heart!). This person is usually bright, innovative, and is a social marketing expert or consultant brought into a brand, corporate, or product marketing team (or agency) to enlighten the broader team on the world of social marketing. They speak the same language as Powered folks, and understand why a branded community could be a powerful tool for their company. They Twitter, they blog, they're on FriendFeed, and you might even find them on Posterous or FourSquare.

Pretty quickly, the second stage of the conversation starts - the effort by the social media expert to sell our ideas internally at their company. This is certainly not reserved to Powered's offerings. Selling social media/marketing broadly is a central part of this internal expert's job, whether it's why the company should open a corporate Twitter account, fill out a Facebook page, or invest in social media monitoring tools. This is where the conversation often stalls.

For some reason, the sales pitch based on ROI numbers doesn't resonate with senior management. Certain parts of the case don't hold up because they don't agree with the statistical approach, or they don't think the case study applies to them because of the unique market characteristics of their company or brand. These are often very valid objections, but sometimes they aren't the real, underlying issue. Good marketers are analytical, and they use analytics to compare channels and campaigns - eliminating the poor performers and putting more budget toward the high performers. But great marketers are also incredibly intuitive. They have a keen sense for what provokes an emotional response, what produces a feeling of influence, what modifies behavior. This intuition is based on personal experience. At some point every marketing exec saw a 30-second TV spot that made them love a brand more, or received a really interesting piece of direct mail, or visited a really well-designed corporate website. They also know the marketing efforts that left them cold in those mediums, and why.

When senior marketers with keen intuition step into an unfamiliar marketing environment (like a social network), they can suddenly feel like the internal compass that has served them so well for so long is broken. Without a feel for the medium, they aren't going to be very inclined to put budget toward it, even if the numbers seem good on paper. This is exacerbated by the fact that their peers don't have a good feel for it either and as a result have little trust trust in it. Social media is risky enough without feeling the rest of your management looking over your shoulder. As an old colleague used to say, "no one gets fired for buying more TV."

So while putting together a compelling business case is important, the other and more fundamental side of selling social media is to help a senior marketer build a sense of value and intuition for the medium. I call this the "intuitive sell," and it's what for a marketer connects the marketing action to the results in a meaningful, believable way. The best way to accomplish the intuitive sell is to encourage the unfamiliar marketer to use social media personally - not necessarily to become a power user, but to demystify the tools and the value people are getting out of them.

The objective is to get them to understand the mechanics, and to feel the tug of why people spend so much time on social websites (compared to non-social) in a personal way - if just for a minute. Instead of showing them case studies, take them to the actual sites in the case studies and help them observe interactions at a granular level. Get them participating. Let them experiment with their own identity before they involve the identity of their company. Feeding a senior marketer's intuition is as important as feeding them a good business case. When both are served well, it may feel like less of a risk and more like an opportunity. Then the budget will start to flow.

In February 2008, Peter Kim (formerly of Forrester and now of Dachis Corp fame) coined a term called "The Connected Agency" and co-authored a report for Forrester that predicted a fundamental shift in the agency world.

. . . marketers will move to the Connected Agency — one that shifts: from making messages to nurturing consumer connections; from delivering push to creating pull interactions; and from orchestrating campaigns to facilitating conversations.

Upon Peter's departure, Sean Corcoran has continued to flesh out the concept and has done some really interesting research. How does this idea start to evidence itself and what are the implications in the agency world? Well, it means that the focus moves from placements (and the reach, frequency, and share of voice associated with them) to conversations. And the main problem with conversations is that they can start anywhere, move, continue, move again, and finally end somewhere else. They are essentially placeless.

Social PR, Earned Media, and Community Websites

The lack of place in marketing built around conversations has started the slow obsolescence of the current agency modeled on specialization around place. Suddenly, everything is "social" and every type of agency is claiming it as their own in the rush to conversationalize themselves (it should be noted that some don't seem aware of the rush and sit blithely by). PR is now Social PR, Media is now Earned Media, and Interactive websites are now Online communities. Everyone wants to be that one agency that helps the brand with its conversations - The Connected Agency. The Connected Agency has to have the PR savvy to manage a Twitter account without a costly misstep in representation, the Media savvy to be able to understand and track the flow and influence of posted links across Facebook, Delicious, and millions of blogs, and the Interactive savvy to be able to build a campaign microsite utilizing numerous content widgets, Facebook Connect, and OpenSocial.

Team Detroit (and the Walls Come Tumbling Down?)

The major marketing companies will soon start to leverage their true advantage as a confederation of agencies across the spectrum of place. They can pull their agencies up, cross-integrate them and allow them to pitch truly conversation-based strategies that meld PR, traditional media, direct marketing, and online assets to powerful affect.

For instance, WPP's Team Detroit, formed wisely as an experiment in a large but offshoot market, is thriving. JWT, Y&R, Wunderman, Ogilvy, Mindshare, and The Park, all under one roof where "there are no walls, only ideas."

Team Detroit's strategy is one that I think we'll continue to see explored by other holding companies as the restructuring toward connectedness continues. The positive for marketers is that the more that we connect with our customers, the more we can do for them, and the more fulfilling our jobs will be.

Powered does a lot of webinars, and has had many that were very well-attended this year. Every time, attendees submit great questions and have unique business problems they are trying to solve through social marketing, but we never have enough time to address them all to the benefit of the group. This year, over 200 questions have been submitted to our webinar panelists and we've probably only gotten to a handful of them.

So please join Powered on Wednesday, July 29th at 2:00 PM Central time, as we launch the Social Marketing Help Desk - our new, monthly webinar series focused exclusively on answering your questions - no powerpoint and no sales pitches allowed. Our first effort will feature me (Doug Wick) as host with Aaron Strout from Powered and guest star Adam Cohen, a partner from Rosetta. You can register here to attend.

A few real examples . . .

• "Management believes communities should cost nothing and require no staff to maintain. What is the resource commitment required to develop and sustain them?”

• “How are communities different from ‘panels?’”

• “Do you think that Twitter and other micro-blogging tools will become more prevalent in community based programs or will they stop growing in the near future?"

We look forward to seeing you there! If you have any format ideas or questions you'd like to throw in the hopper, please share your thoughts in the comments.

Recently I've been thinking more about (and working on) how Powered, as a social marketing provider that focuses on building online communities for brands, can expand our partnerships with those brands' marketing agencies. In an earlier post, I broke down the question of whether or not agencies can evolve into social. In that post I mentioned a lot of ways that agencies will choose to drive that evolution - with a partnering strategy being one of the major approaches.

For brands - who are really focused on delivering results in the most cost-efficient way possible today - the goal with any partner approach is to drive a social marketing offering where multiple cooperative partners in the social space can deliver more value than they would individually.

A useful metaphor for how this might be done is the world of investing. After all, social marketing is about brands investing in relationships in ways that they can't do through more traditional marketing channels. But these investments can take many forms.

Any good investor will tell you that diversification is key. You must not only invest in short term vehicles (like stocks) that can be more rewarding but are also riskier, you must also make sure you putting money into long term vehicles. Additionally, the interaction between these short term and long term investments is important to building wealth. Gains made in stocks must occasionally be funneled into longer term vehicles and locked down.

I see the world of social media the same way. Ultimately, storytelling and the production of compelling media - the ability to connect emotionally with a consumer while fitting into the current media and market environment - takes the skill and experience of a great agency. Here are some recently highlighted offline examples from the world of Outdoor advertising.

This "Day Trader" of the social media world knows how to place the right bets, which tools/networks to place them in, how to get the message just right, and the right process for spinning them up with online and offline media/search buys. His or her world is dynamic, and changes every day based on moves in technology, competitor activities, audience preferences, and hundreds of other variables.

Because of that changing world, the focus is on the near term and the strategies are campaign-oriented. They have to be, as the campaign that works today might not work tomorrow.The focus is on creativity, customization, agility, trendspotting, leveraging various technologies, short term measurement, joining instead of building, and exploration.

The good campaigns will be heavily rewarded: with consumer attention, affinity, word-of-mouth buzz, loyalty, and new business. But where will those earnings go when that Day Trader has to move on to the next campaign?

This is where the Investment Manager comes in, the person who keeps a long view and helps leverage the riches that the Day Trader produces into long term wealth. In social marketing, this is the community provider - and with that provider are the people that manage the marketing assets where fans and customers can engage over the long term with brands and with each other. This is who creates and manages a brand's 401k. The focus is on infrastructure, sustained processes, long-run measurement, building instead of joining, and content with a long lifespan.

These skill sets are both highly necessary, highly complementary, and difficult to perform at a high level simultaneously - which makes them fit a partner model well. Also, the long-term vehicle of community is the newer piece, and part of an agency's evolution into social is to understand how it works, and how it complements, their work.

Last week, I received this question from @dbaron in my weekly webinar and wasn't able to get to it. But I also felt that it is a larger topic that warrants a blog post. It's a question we get frequently at Powered, typically with a follow-up question about how our platform handles mobile.

The answer right now is, at the same time, a lot and a little.

In terms of participation in social media, much is now driven by mobile devices. The iPhone and similar new smartphones by Blackberry have become portals into popular services like Facebook and Twitter, cameras that post pictures instantly for friends to see, an outlet to let your friends know where you are and what you are doing. In terms of content creation for social networks, I actually do a lot more on my iPhone than I do on my laptop now. When I'm out and about I often have lot more going on that is post-worthy. I think the emphasis on the newsfeed and short bits of information in most networking services is a response to that behavior.

Networking is just becoming more interesting and powerful with GPS-enabled devices and location-based services like Brightkite (geotagged photos) or Moximity (geography-based networking).

However, the world of social marketing hasn't been impacted much by mobile yet. This is for two reasons.

First, marketing through services like Facebook is still being figured out (and Facebook Connect offers many of the answers there), as ads don't perform very well and pages don't create long term engagement. If the model is still evolving for the broad web, the much younger mobile web has nothing to emulate.

Second, these networking services are communications tools, and mobile devices are still at their heart communications devices. While people may browse for the odd piece of information like a sports score or Madonna's age (to settle a bet), it is rare to see prolonged sessions of browsing on mobile devices the way you see them on laptops. Mobile has narrow attention that allows little space for marketers to squeeze in without angering the user.

But small geography-powered services that address particular mobile use cases - like finding a restaurant, checking movie times, or delivering timely updates on events, will find niche audiences where offers could be served within the narrow attention of mobile in a relevant way. And once Facebook and other networks get a firmer grasp on how best to integrate marketing, those models can be extended into the mobile space.

Yesterday, I hosted our first webinar entitled "Powered Social Marketing: How It Elevates Your Bottom Line." We had good attendance, great participation, and I felt like it was an excellent start to this weekly series.

We'll be doing this presentation every week on Thursday at 2 CST, and even though it is Powered-centric and you will learn everything you need to know if you are considering Powered as a potential partner - it is largely about Social Marketing, what it means and how it can make you successful, no matter how you decide to do it.

In the first session yesterday, several folks requested a soft copy of the resources slide I showed at the end of the presentation as a follow-up. So here is what I showed (with links, below).

Please know that this is just a subset of the exhaustive list of the resources and the smart people who are focusing time and energy on education in the social marketing space, so I would encourage everyone to start here and explore outward to find new people and new ideas. And if you find anything particularly interesting, we'd love to hear about it. Thanks, and we'll see you next week!

The Sites You Saw

http://www.sony.com/backstage101
http://community.atkins.com

More from Powered (@PoweredInc on Twitter)

Powered Social Marketing 2008 ROI Report
Powered White Paper Series
Powered Monthly Webinars
Powered Blog: The Engaged Consumer (You are here)
Powered Engaged Consumer Email Newsletter (Right hand side subscription form)

More from outside of Powered

Books: Groundswell, The Cluetrain Manifesto
Blogs: Web Strategy by Jeremiah Owyang, Mashable, Chris Brogan, Social Media Club, Aaron Strout, Tom Humbarger, Shannon Paul, Peter Kim, Bill Johnston, Pistachio, Doug Haslam . . .

My Contact Information

Doug Wick, Director of Business Development
doug.wick (at) powered dot com / @DougWick on Twitter

The role of a proprietary community environment for the purposes of marketing (or social marketing program) has been hotly debated among brand marketers and social media insiders. We know that social sites are more engaging (people spend more time on them) than non-social, and marketers want to tap into that power.

So as a marketer, do you build your own community, or do you join others'? If you decide to build a community, what is the best marketing application - a community for your Loyalty Program, a community for building Insight into consumers that Market Research uses, an educational community for those considering your products that is more of a Direct Marketing play?

But it seems like brands are benefiting from building AND joining . . . and we've seen applications for social marketing  that are generating value along each (and in many cases, all) of the above dimensions.

Something I learned long ago is that if your questions have multiple correct answers, then you might be asking the wrong questions.

The range of marketing value propositions that a branded online community can serve indicates that the community isn't really appropriate for just one of them - after all, separating "loyalty program" from "acquisition program," "pre-purchase" from "post-purchase," is something that marketers do for ourselves. Consumers don't classify interactions that cleanly. Plus we're seeing social tools being applied in almost every dimension of a company's customer-facing business . . .

Ecommerce - Social Commerce / product presence through ratings and reviews by providers like Bazaarvoice

Support - Enhanced Product/Service Support Forums by providers like Lithium

PR/IR - Blogging and corporate presence platforms by providers like Awareness Networks

Focus Groups and Research - Formal deep online market research environments from providers like Communispace

The problem with the above applications is that while they are powerful when a consumer is ready to hear about what you're selling, they suffer from what I call the "dinner party egomaniac" problem. If they are the only social applications you have, you risk sounding like the person at the dinner party who is only willing to have conversations about themselves  - your products, your company, your brand. And if your product or brand isn't particularly sexy, that problem is exacerbated.

This makes it remarkably difficult to drive brand engagement from third party social environments to your properties. On those sites, consumers are busy talking to and relating to each other about the things that matter to them. They are not in a transactional mindset, and the invasive brand-centric presence there will be no more effective than, and probably less effective than, a 30-second TV spot.

What is needed is a transitional space, a place where consumers can go from third party social engagement to brand engagement naturally. A place that "changes the subject" at the dinner party in a way that Emily Post would approve.

This is where a branded online community can enter in - as the platform that reaches into third party social sites, converting third party social engagement into branded social engagement while retaining the context of consumer needs and aspirations. Branded communities need to be focused at the lifestyle and category level for this reason - it's where the brand connects to consumers and their conversation.

What makes this easier are technologies that most third party social sites are implementing that allow users to take their identity, relationships, content, and features seamlessly from an unbranded environment to a branded one: like Facebook Connect, for instance.



So perhaps all of these things begin to function together in a new-media word-of-mouth marketing infrastructure, as above. Social enablement of the brand presence in all dimensions, and then a social marketing program where the brand connects with the relevant aspirations and needs of the consumer - and which fields participants from social destinations in powerful new ways that wildly outperform more traditional broadcast marketing channels.

I'll be talking about this topic, social marketing, and how Powered provides these programs every week, starting tomorrow at 2:00 CST, in a webinar called "Powered Social Marketing: How It Can Elevate Your Bottom Line." Stop by and see what we have to say!

Recently, I've been a little obsessed with ROI as it relates to social marketing, as I seek to put in more tangible terms what I feel intuitively about this new toolset's value.

To this end, Adam Cohen hit my Reader just right with a nice real-world post on measuring the marketing effectiveness of social media in general (not another post just on how important it is that it be measured, thank goodness). As Powered has done in our 2009 ROI Report he focused on purchase path as the main way to address the value created by social presence. Truly, resultant sales is the most logical way to measure marketing, and Adam rightly calls for social media tools to be linked along the clickstream more directly with end purchase. Powered's self-reported data is a compelling indicator, as we typically find on the low end that 1 in 5 consumers report a purchase as a result of social engagement within one of Powered's client communities.

But there is more here than just getting people to consider a purchase. In our ROI report and with our customers we do focus on a number of statistics that address things like loyalty, advocacy, brand affinity, and insight into consumers. All of these words are abstract; they all refer to things that are intangible. But nevertheless, a marketer's intuition tells you that these things are the essence of what we seek to impact. Unfortunately, those outside of the marketing profession see those terms as arcane and would rather you just "show them the money." You can't really blame them.

It was while considering the intangible and social marketing's impact on it that I found this article by Christopher Kenton (via David Churbuck) that I found fascinating. Christopher's article isn't about social media/marketing, but rather about why CMO's are being pushed more toward true financial measurability of marketing in general. The premise of his article is built around this finding:

According to Jonathan Knowles of Brand Finance, a consultancy that specializes in the valuation of businesses, the tangible assets that used to account for 75 percent of a company's stock market value in the 1980s now only accounts for 22 percent of market value.

Wow, I can imagine the CFO-head-scratching that this sea change likely causes. Seventy-eight percent of my company's value is in assets that I can't see? Granted, some of these intangibles will reside in the internals: the IP, the human capital, the processes and technological know-how of a company. But no doubt much of this intangible value exists outside: in the brand equity that a company has built with consumers/customers - the affinity, loyalty, advocacy, and market insight that is the department of the CMO.

Today, what the stock market knows has forced the CFO into that CMO's office to ask for a firmer grasp of the unseen - and for less arcane ways to measure it. Popular but still nascent measures like NPS (Net Promoter Score) seek to fill the gap and make loyalty/advocacy tangible, but more research and development is needed to tie it to financial impact - and that impact likely differs structurally from company to company.

In the meantime, as we wait for more widely accepted measures, I would suggest this hypothesis: there is currently no more powerful tool in the marketer's toolbelt to impact intangible marketing assets like loyalty, affinity, advocacy, and insight than social marketing. Proof points abound outside of Powered's walls, but our statistics show an extremely powerful effect that I believe dwarfs other marketing mediums when you take into consideration relative cost. Aaron Strout blogged about them earlier.

And when you're talking about assets that make up as much as 78% of your company's stock value, you might as well be talking about your entire business.

In the world of the CFO and company valuation, the two main forces on the positive side are cash flow and assets. So it's reasonable to predict that someday in the not-so-distant future, the ROI of social marketing (and marketing in general) might not only contain a short-term conversion-based model that looks like the ROI models of old, rolling into cash flows . . . but will also include a more powerful new-world long term model that analyzes the impact of social marketing on intangible assets.

Are you already there? If so, how are you measuring?